CB650F Shifting issue from 1st gear to 2nd

[freetjen]

Hello, i know it is not a CB650F, but it is a honda...
I have my bike CBR650r 2022 for a couple of months now. Just before i reached the 1000 km mark the shifting from 1 - 2de was very rough, i felt the neutral between the 2 gears and was really difficult to get it in the second gear.
I needed to go for the first maintenance at 1000 km, i though it might have been the oil, so i was hoping after mainenance it would be fixed.
I also told the workshop that i had some issues with 1-2. But he went for a test ride and told me everything was normal??
I spotted he adjusted the freeplay of the clutch lever, There was now a lot of play. When i came out of the garage it was even wors. Now sometimes i even had problems to go to 3de.
I adjusting the clutch free play back to were it was, shifting to 3de was back pretty much oke now, but 1-2de was still an issue. Sometimes i got stuck in neutral after shifting from 1-2. So i tried even less play, but that didn't help either.
But after some reading on the net, i realised after cleaning the chain at 700km i adjusted the tension of the chain. Now i was wondering is my tension correct as i set it a bit on the low side.
In the manual it says that the tension needs to be between 25-35mm, mine was set at 20mm+-. After adjusting the chain around the 30mm mark the problem seems to be fixed.
I adjusted the freeplay of the clutch back to 10-15mm (as there was not much free play left), i need to test again now after this adjustment. (crossfingers)
Maybe this could help somebody in the future..

 

[freetjen]

I've had my 2018 CBR650F (22,000km) three weeks now and have been commuting daily in traffic. A lot of stop/start. At speed, the shifting is silky smooth but the 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 shifts at low pace (ie. filtering between traffic, taking off from a standstill) are very inconsistent and somewhat frustrating. 1 to 2 is the more problematic, as mostly it snicks into gear, but occasionally seems to lock as it crosses through neutral. Ie. it clicks up into neutral but then the shifter stops, and requires a fair bit of force to get it past the point up to 2nd. I've adjusted the clutch cable, chain tension and throttle freeplay (things I do anyway as soon as I buy a bike) with the chain tension probably have more impact that anything else. I also lowered the shifter 10mm after reading about that option but that had no impact whatsoever. I have the eBay shift support on the way which I'm expecting will help somewhat given my shifting spline has noticable vertical movement (for reference, my XSR700 shifter spline has no vertical movement whatsoever).

From reading all of the threads regarding the issue on these forums, it seems that:
- Some people notice it and find it frustrating/annoying. I'm currently in this camp.
- Some people notice it and have just gotten used to it or have changed their shifting technique to work around it.
- Some people notice it but have managed to get rid of it with various tweaks to adjustments. I'm hoping to join this group.
- Some people don't notice it, or perhaps their bikes just don't have the issue as bad as others.

My opinion (which appears to be in agreeance with some, and disagreeance with others) is that you shouldn't have to boot the gear shifter from 1 to 2 every single time you change gears, nor should you have to rev the engine up to 4-5k before changing gears. My experience with plenty of others bikes agrees with this. Being able to shift smoothly, easily and consistently is something that makes riding (especially in traffic) more enjoyable and relaxing.

Also, it's easy for people to say "well just shift better" or "it's not the bike, is the technique", but without riding that other persons bike you have no idea whether their bike has harder shifting than your own as seems pretty clear that this is a common, yet not necessarily consistent, transmission trait of the 650 four. A trait with for my specific bike, makes it trickier to shift than anything I've owned before it.

Hmm, don't know what happend but it is back. Was good for 1 ride, but then after adjusting the free play back to recommended specs it was back again.
I adjusted the clutch to nearly no play again, i will try again tomorrow.

For me the issue is primairly 1-2, 3de is... oke, all the rest are oke, aswell as downshifting all oke. The loud shifting sounds i also have, but i presume that is not an issue.

@Cedar, i"am also getting at the the camp of frustration/annoing actually.
Nothing more frustrating then everytime you leave the traffic light hoping that it will grap in to 2de. It is not undrivable, and it does not always happen, but the feeling when shifting 1-2 feels like....off. Like it is not alligned propperly or something, i dont know.

I bought mine new, have like 2000 km on it now. So i don't think it has anything to do with what the previous driver did to your bike, i think it is just an issue.
The solution, i am still trying to figure it out atm.
Trying higher revs, lower revs, hmm, less clutch play, to almost no free play, reving a bit when shifting.

I agree with you about that remark shifting at higher revs, hat is justnot always possible if you are in traffic. Here in Belgium it is a small country, with a lot of traffic lights, traffic jams, 30-50km restrictions, if i need to shift in high revs then i recon i need to stay in 1 and 2de gear the hole drive

I did not change the connecting rod height yet, maybe should try that.
Also preloading i need check if that helps

As it is was a new bike, i went very carefull when shifting, making shure it had the time to dissengage the cluth before shifting, and still getting this issue with that amount of mileage.
I also spotted the verticale movement, a couple of days ago, on the shift axle like you mentioned. This might be the issue. I recon if it is shifted more in or out, this could cause some gearing not being allign propperly, iam guessing it could have something to do with that.
@Cedar: I read you order some parts, did they arrived yet. I really am interested in that spacer for that axle, if that improved anything?

@Cedar: I dont know if it was available for the cb650f, but do you have the short shifter? I don't have that installed, i think it takes the fun out of driving a bike, maybe some cruise control... , but this might also fix the shifting issue on the cbr650r but as said, i am not a fan at all.

FYI
When i first got the bike, when it was started up (cold state, it was januari and was jsut started up +-0°C), and the bike was at a standstill in first gear, the bike was moving ever so slightly forwards. Meaning that the clutch was gripping slightly when the clutch was fully engaged.
When driving, the shifting trough gears was so silent that you did not gear it shift at all, you needed to look at the screen to see if it was at a higher gear.
When i went and picked up the bike the workshop told me when starting up the bike (in cold state) to put it in 1st gear before starting so that you don't have that loud poping sound going from neutral to 1st. So i did that everytime, even when it was warmed up. I started up the bike, let it warm up, turn it off, put it in to 1st and then starting the bike again.
After some time around 800km, the shifting sound trough the gears where getting more noticeable.
At 1200km+- i got my first service, hoping the oil change would help a bit, but it didn't.

I am really hoping that at some point the issue will fixed, and i just can enjoy a drive without thinking about that shifting issue.

 

[Brammers]

These issues are usually (but not always) one or more of the following:

* Incorrect chain tension
* Incorrect clutch lever free play
* Low revs & speed
* Bad technique
* Bad engine oil (some brands of oil don't work well)
* Incorrect gear lever height (it needs adjustment for you boot position)

I'm not saying any or one of them applies, but over the years the above have resolved 99% of gearbox issues on the 650 platform.

If you still have a warranty, get Honda to look at it.

J

 

[Tony650r]

Hmm, don't know what happend but it is back. Was good for 1 ride, but then after adjusting the free play back to recommended specs it was back again.
I adjusted the clutch to nearly no play again, i will try again tomorrow.

For me the issue is primairly 1-2, 3de is... oke, all the rest are oke, aswell as downshifting all oke. The loud shifting sounds i also have, but i presume that is not an issue.

@Cedar, i"am also getting at the the camp of frustration/annoing actually.
Nothing more frustrating then everytime you leave the traffic light hoping that it will grap in to 2de. It is not undrivable, and it does not always happen, but the feeling when shifting 1-2 feels like....off. Like it is not alligned propperly or something, i dont know.

I bought mine new, have like 2000 km on it now. So i don't think it has anything to do with what the previous driver did to your bike, i think it is just an issue.
The solution, i am still trying to figure it out atm.
Trying higher revs, lower revs, hmm, less clutch play, to almost no free play, reving a bit when shifting.

I agree with you about that remark shifting at higher revs, hat is justnot always possible if you are in traffic. Here in Belgium it is a small country, with a lot of traffic lights, traffic jams, 30-50km restrictions, if i need to shift in high revs then i recon i need to stay in 1 and 2de gear the hole drive

I did not change the connecting rod height yet, maybe should try that.
Also preloading i need check if that helps

As it is was a new bike, i went very carefull when shifting, making shure it had the time to dissengage the cluth before shifting, and still getting this issue with that amount of mileage.
I also spotted the verticale movement, a couple of days ago, on the shift axle like you mentioned. This might be the issue. I recon if it is shifted more in or out, this could cause some gearing not being allign propperly, iam guessing it could have something to do with that.
@Cedar: I read you order some parts, did they arrived yet. I really am interested in that spacer for that axle, if that improved anything?

@Cedar: I dont know if it was available for the cb650f, but do you have the short shifter? I don't have that installed, i think it takes the fun out of driving a bike, maybe some cruise control... , but this might also fix the shifting issue on the cbr650r but as said, i am not a fan at all.

FYI
When i first got the bike, when it was started up (cold state, it was januari and was jsut started up +-0°C), and the bike was at a standstill in first gear, the bike was moving ever so slightly forwards. Meaning that the clutch was gripping slightly when the clutch was fully engaged.
When driving, the shifting trough gears was so silent that you did not gear it shift at all, you needed to look at the screen to see if it was at a higher gear.
When i went and picked up the bike the workshop told me when starting up the bike (in cold state) to put it in 1st gear before starting so that you don't have that loud poping sound going from neutral to 1st. So i did that everytime, even when it was warmed up. I started up the bike, let it warm up, turn it off, put it in to 1st and then starting the bike again.
After some time around 800km, the shifting sound trough the gears where getting more noticeable.
At 1200km+- i got my first service, hoping the oil change would help a bit, but it didn't.

I am really hoping that at some point the issue will fixed, and i just can enjoy a drive without thinking about that shifting issue.

Wait did you say that the bike wanted to move while fully holding the clutch in 1st?Pretty sure that’s no bueno.

 

[Ian Warren]

Out of all the bikes i have had suzuki are the best gear selection click click smoth as butter, next would be honda i find the problem with them even had it on my cbr600rr cbr1000rr is the long throw between 1st and 2nd where we mostly get a false nutral , esily dialed out by good adjustment of the gear lever i drop it down about 10mm and positive firm upward movement and correct chain adjustment more crutial with honda and yamahs gear box , the only issue that can happen with lowering the gear leaver is changing down 2nd to 1st a miss match of coordination between clutch and foot movement can result in a harsh change , but normaly no problems , if you know that its an issue then the problem is halfed and workable

You can get neutral by mistake on any bike, my number of bikes is only three but my Suzuki 125, Honda CBR650R and even my Ducati Panigale V2 do it!
It’s normally the same cause and normally changing 2:1 or 1:2 and it’s normally because you don’t remember to press hard with your toes and move the lever the double distance required to get past neutral!
QS or not (SuZuki not, CBR650R up only, Panigale V2 up/down QS/Blipper like silk, but still needs a proper longer movement to to the mechanical part of the shift.

When you get one just pull the clutch, move the shift lever up/down as required and especially if it’s a downshift to first feed the clutch out slowly even with a slip and assist clutch the rear wheel may show hints of locking up/skidding if you aren’t gentle engaging the clutch, even on the Ducati!
Shifting from Neutral to 2nd the slipper clutch seems to work on the Ducati but not down to first!
Definitely wouldn’t want to drop the clutch on a missed shift down to first on a wet road but I am used to slipping out the clutch now.

 

[Cedar650]

@Cedar, i"am also getting at the the camp of frustration/annoing actually.
Nothing more frustrating then everytime you leave the traffic light hoping that it will grap in to 2de. It is not undrivable, and it does not always happen, but the feeling when shifting 1-2 feels like....off. Like it is not alligned propperly or something, i dont know.

Yeah I know exactly what you mean. The inconsistency is the tricky bit, as I reckon 19 times out of 20 it slips up into 2nd with no problem, but then you start to relax a little and all of a sudden it throws a tricky one at you and sticks in neutral. As you said, it's now become a matter of every time you take off from the lights hoping you get a good shift from 1st and 2nd and it does not get stuck between. Mine seems to every now and then just hit a wall as you shift through neutral, which can be avoided by shifting at a higher rpm or making sure you put extra effort into the shift and be ready to push it a bit harder if you have to.

What I can say is that the shift support (cheap eBay version) definitely helped. It doesn't cure the problem, but lessens the frequency of it happening as it takes more of the freeplay out of shifting mechanism (ie. as soon as you start lifting your foot, the shifter starts rotating). As a bonus, it tightens up all shifts across the board so gives benefits overall.

So far I've adjusted the chain slack to the tighter end (25-30mm), reduced clutch cable freeplay to about 10mm, installed the shift support and lowered the shifter. This has all helped to give better overall shifting, though I expect my issue at least is something internal and while each of the above reduce the chances of a bad shift occuring, they don't eliminate it because they can't, and weren't the actual problem to begin with.

I tried a shorter shift arm (eBay generic Honda one) which reduced the distance between the shift spline and ball joint from 45mm (standard) down to 35mm. This changed the shifters range of movement from approximately 55mm from full down to full up, to 35mm. I knew this could go either way and either make it better from less movement of the shifter being required, or worse from more effort being required to push the shifter with your foot. It was absolutely worse, and became very difficult to push the shifter with your foot, which is basic engineering in play (less movement/leverage requires more effort and vice versa) so a shorter shift arm is a definite no. Though given how noticable it was, what I might actually try next just for the hell of it is whacking an extension on the shorter shift arm to make it longer than standard. Perhaps 55mm. This will make the shift throw increase, but reduce effort, which may lessen the chance of it hanging up between gears. At this point I'll just give it a shot because I already have the parts but don't expect it to be a silver bullet solution.

Anyway, I think I've accepted that what I have now is as good as it's going to get (without cracking the engine open) and I'm starting to get used to it so don't want to put any more brain power into trying to resolve it. Other than this it's such a great bike for daily commuting so I'll try to focus on enjoying the good rather than focussing on things that I've accepted I can't fix.

 

[xorbe]

What if you preload the shifter and manually quick shift by dropping the throttle momentarily, same issue?

 

[User28]

You can get neutral by mistake on any bike, my number of bikes is only three but my Suzuki 125, Honda CBR650R and even my Ducati Panigale V2 do it!
It’s normally the same cause and normally changing 2:1 or 1:2 and it’s normally because you don’t remember to press hard with your toes and move the lever the double distance required to get past neutral!
QS or not (SuZuki not, CBR650R up only, Panigale V2 up/down QS/Blipper like silk, but still needs a proper longer movement to to the mechanical part of the shift.

When you get one just pull the clutch, move the shift lever up/down as required and especially if it’s a downshift to first feed the clutch out slowly even with a slip and assist clutch the rear wheel may show hints of locking up/skidding if you aren’t gentle engaging the clutch, even on the Ducati!
Shifting from Neutral to 2nd the slipper clutch seems to work on the Ducati but not down to first!
Definitely wouldn’t want to drop the clutch on a missed shift down to first on a wet road but I am used to slipping out the clutch now.

Never had a false neutral on ether my Suzuki's and Yamaha's, but on all my hondas i have had them but easily reduced by good chain adjustment and gear arm length adjusted with very positive foot action

 

[Cedar650]

Never had a false neutral on ether my Suzuki's and Yamaha's, but on all my hondas i have had them but easily reduced by good chain adjustment and gear arm length adjusted with very positive foot action

Quite a good repertoire of bikes your have these in your sig. Like you, I've never experienced faulse neutrals on any of my previous 30+ bikes aside from this CBR650F and also once on my mates CB900F Hornet (919 in the US) which I have in the garage at the moment. Riding the CBR650F back to back with my XSR700 or the CB900F is night and day. Co-incidentally enough (or maybe not) the CBR500 / CB500 groups are rife with reports of bad/knotchy shifting so I'm going to put it down to the "made in Thailand" factor where perhaps the manufacturing tolerances aren't quite as high as their Japanese counterparts (given how much nicer every Honda I've owned before the CBR650F has shifted). Tolerances would explain why some experience it, and some don't, as well as many other factors (chain tension, oil, shifter height), though it's definitely shown its tendancy to be overly sensitive to correct adjustment and shifting technique.

 

[Cedar650]

I tried a shorter shift arm (eBay generic Honda one) which reduced the distance between the shift spline and ball joint from 45mm (standard) down to 35mm. This changed the shifters range of movement from approximately 55mm from full down to full up, to 35mm. I knew this could go either way and either make it better from less movement of the shifter being required, or worse from more effort being required to push the shifter with your foot. It was absolutely worse, and became very difficult to push the shifter with your foot, which is basic engineering in play (less movement/leverage requires more effort and vice versa) so a shorter shift arm is a definite no. Though given how noticable it was, what I might actually try next just for the hell of it is whacking an extension on the shorter shift arm to make it longer than standard. Perhaps 55mm. This will make the shift throw increase, but reduce effort, which may lessen the chance of it hanging up between gears. At this point I'll just give it a shot because I already have the parts but don't expect it to be a silver bullet solution.

To quote myself, I think I might be onto something. I dodged up a pretty ugly/temporary extension to my generic 35mm shift arm to bring it to 55m between the centre of the spline to the centre of the ball joint. Note that the stock shifter is 45mm between the spline and ball joint. I'll reserve my judgement until I do a bit more testing, but the results on the 30min ride to work this morning actually blew me away a little.

As above, the reduction to 35mm made shifting far worse. A lot worse than I expected it might. Whilst it reduced the throw of the shifter, it significantly increased the pressure required to get it to shift and without a doubt made any notchiness more noticable especially when passing between 1st and 2nd. It was a result that although negative, was very definitive. Based on this, if a shorter arm makes shifting noticably harder/worse, then a longer arm in theory could make shifting noticably better. This morning at least the gearbox was slicker than it's ever been with less effort requied to shift although with slightly more throw. The mathematics would say that the 20% increase in throw would equate to a 20% decrease in effort and I think that this has held true, though the extra throw didn't really seem to be an issue.

Though as mentioned, I'll reserve my judgement after some more comprehensive testing, at which point I'll see if I can track down a standard shift arm from a different motorcycle with the desired parameters, at which point I'd love someone who isn't completetly happy with their shifting to give it a shot and see how they feel about it.

 

[Brian C.]

To quote myself, I think I might be onto something. I dodged up a pretty ugly/temporary extension to my generic 35mm shift arm to bring it to 55m between the centre of the spline to the centre of the ball joint. Note that the stock shifter is 45mm between the spline and ball joint. I'll reserve my judgement until I do a bit more testing, but the results on the 30min ride to work this morning actually blew me away a little.

As above, the reduction to 35mm made shifting far worse. A lot worse than I expected it might. Whilst it reduced the throw of the shifter, it significantly increased the pressure required to get it to shift and without a doubt made any notchiness more noticable especially when passing between 1st and 2nd. It was a result that although negative, was very definitive. Based on this, if a shorter arm makes shifting noticably harder/worse, then a longer arm in theory could make shifting noticably better. This morning at least the gearbox was slicker than it's ever been with less effort requied to shift although with slightly more throw. The mathematics would say that the 20% increase in throw would equate to a 20% decrease in effort and I think that this has held true, though the extra throw didn't really seem to be an issue.

Though as mentioned, I'll reserve my judgement after some more comprehensive testing, at which point I'll see if I can track down a standard shift arm from a different motorcycle with the desired parameters, at which point I'd love someone who isn't completetly happy with their shifting to give it a shot and see how they feel about it.

Now that is interesting, i cant say I've ever had any real issues with the shifting between 1st and 2nd, but i have thought the lever could be longer (i have size 13 feet, EU size 48) nice to know that may actually be a useful and workable mod for me. Thanks for the info!