Steering damper

[victorkkq]

Ok, I had no idea. Thanks for schooling me on this.

Actually at one time I was moving 80-90kmph.. Out of a sudden I decided to shake my handle bar abit for fun.. and the effect was terrifying.. the "slaps" happens and it amplifies violently.. not sure a sane person do what I did, silly me. I am still not sure if I need a steering damper.. but for sure my balls dropped off that day..

 

[Enrico]

Actually at one time I was moving 80-90kmph.. Out of a sudden I decided to shake my handle bar abit for fun.. and the effect was terrifying.. the "slaps" happens and it amplifies violently.. not sure a sane person do what I did, silly me. I am still not sure if I need a steering damper.. but for sure my balls dropped off that day..

What do you expect if you shake the handlebars ?!

 

[skeletor]

What do you expect if you shake the handlebars ?!

Do you only want to be a theoretical motorcyclist?!?!

 

[Brammers]

I like to theoretically live to see the end of a ride.

 

[Itchytoe]

I have a LAMS version, with no mods apart from bored out intakes, and I occasionally get the death wobbles usually when in excess of 150+kmph.
not fun at all at those speeds. so yes, It could use a damper, if you use the bike to its full potential. It will definitely need one after i get the restriction removed.

A damper is not designed to "solve" or "mask" the problem, instead think of it as its degined to reduce the duration and severity of the wobble.
the wobble can come from mechanical issues, and well as other factors such as environment, in conjunction with angle and acceleration etc.
should your bike be mechanically A1,

you shouldnt simply imply its just mechanical, and indirectly convince someone they shouldnt get a device that could very much help save their bike (perhaps a life?) is unwise.
Infact, if a person chooses to ride to the limits, whats wrong with investing in a device that could potentially stop a bad situation getting worse, its may even save their life so they can identify the problem afterwards and rectify it.
I mean, its the same principle as insurance, or a condom.
Id rather have it and not need it, then need it, and not have it.

Every bike seeks to correct its self, and as mentioned, the bike doesnt need to have mechanical issues or a specific geometry in order to get a tank slapper started.
tank slappers can happen when the bike gets airborn and lands with wheels out of line with each other, or doing a wheel stand and landing incorrectly.

If one rides in a manner that could trigger such an event, then such a device is useful. if you just putt around, then yes it meaningless

another situation is hitting debris on the road, while in mid corner, at a speed where it could unsettle the bike, especially handy then because the damper reduces the duration and severity, and if your lucky, help stablise the bike in time before runs off the road.

Well, I'm about to sound like such a huge a-hole. I don't mean it that way though. I'm actually trying to help you solve your issues. I don't want you getting smeared across the road at 150 kmh. Even if you're fully geared, that's going to end badly. I know what road rash feels like, and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

Your issue is a loose nut between the seat and handlebar. You're on a LAMS bike, which means you've got a LAMS restricted license. That tells me you are still a beginner and are learning to ride. You are riding too aggressively and above your skill level. You, the rider, is in control of every factor that can possibly cause a speed wobble. You mentioned mechanical issues, environmental issues, angle and acceleration, going airborne, doing wheelies, and debris in the middle of turns. Mechanical issues should stop you from riding entirely until they are fixed. Don't ride a broken bike. That's in your control. Riding in the environment is entirely in your control as well. If you have limited visibility, slow down to safely maneuver the road. If you can't safely ride in the environmental conditions, don't ride! Is there debris in the road? Slow down and avoid it. Is the road in poor condition? Slow down to safely traverse the road. Is there debris in the middle of a turn that you didn't see until it was too late? Then you were going too fast for the road conditions. Slow down and ride safely. Angle and acceleration are completely controlled by your hands. Your bike getting airborne and landing out of line, or you doing a wheel stand and landing wrong are also in your control. A steering wobble resulting from any of those things are rider error. Nearly 100% of steering wobbles are rider error.

Like you said, every bike corrects itself. Look up some YouTube videos of bike crashes. If the rider falls off the bike, that bike stands up, and goes straight down the road until it hits something. A motorcycle in motion in inherently stable. Physics forces it to go in a straight line and stay upright. You have to force the bike to do anything else. In fact, the faster they are moving, the more stable they get. My 650 is as steady as a rock at 200 kmh with only two fingers from my right hand touching the throttle. I bet you a plane ticket to and from Australia yours will be just as stable. Really, that's all I need to control the bike at those speeds on a straight road.

If you are "riding in a manner that can trigger such an event", or "use the bike to its full potential", on public roads, then you are doing it wrong. You're going to get yourself hurt very badly. These bikes are way more capable than you think. The "full potential" of these bikes can only be approached on a track. If you're having wobble issues on this bike on public roads, you need to get better as a rider. Getting a steering damper might make you feel more stable, but it won't correct the rider error that's causing the issue. That's going to result in you not getting better as a rider, but riding harder and harder until you get yourself hurt. Based on what you've said in this thread, you don't need a steering damper. You need more riding skill.

 

[miweber929]

Every bike doesn’t correct itself nor does it “seek” to correct itself which is why I’ve said some need it, some should have one and some really don’t (unless you do something deliberate as @victorkkq stated he did above). The steering geometry of the 650F (and 300 and 500) doesn’t lend itself to slapping violently.

I wasn’t about to keep arguing a point that I’m extremely familiar with (one example is I had a nasty tank slapper on the front straight of Road America on my 929, at well over 150mph, I’m VERY familiar with what happens) after 40 years of dirt, track riding, racing and street riding.

Don’t just take my word for it: Honda has a great HSED electronic steering damper they put on the bikes that need one, so if a company VERY familiar with being sued for producing “dangerous” recreational vehicles doesn’t feel it needs one, I believe them.

 

[Enrico]

Do you only want to be a theoretical motorcyclist?!?!

That doesn't make sense. I did more than 13,000miles on my cb650f in about 12 months of actual riding before I sold it- that isn't theoretical motorcycling .

 

[Enrico]

I like to theoretically live to see the end of a ride.

Exactly, well said, and that is helped by not shaking the handlebars to see what happens.

 

[Brammers]

Actually at one time I was moving 80-90kmph.. Out of a sudden I decided to shake my handle bar abit for fun.. and the effect was terrifying.. the "slaps" happens and it amplifies violently.. not sure a sane person do what I did, silly me. I am still not sure if I need a steering damper.. but for sure my balls dropped off that day..

This kind of behaviour often ends in a Darwin Award. The fact that you are still here to tell us means you're only going to get a nomination however.

 

[skeletor]

That doesn't make sense. I did more than 13,000miles on my cb650f in about 12 months of actual riding before I sold it- that isn't theoretical motorcycling .

Well, I was joking about his experiments. But, I see I failed to amuse you.
I do, however, appreciate @victorkkq 's curiosity - a pioneer at purposefully shaking handlebars at high speed.

 

[Miliano]

Well, I'm about to sound like such a huge a-hole. I don't mean it that way though. You're on a LAMS bike, which means you've got a LAMS restricted license. That tells me you are still a beginner and are learning to ride. You are riding too aggressively and above your skill level.

dont worry, no offense taken. 😊 it the story of my life.
But being a on a learner I can see how you would think as such, and although I still am learning to ride, my skill level is generally not what you'd expect of a learner. perhaps watching this will give you a better understanding.

mind you, that is at week 8 after getting my license, so 16 days total of riding every weekend, completely within MY comfort zone, riding to my ability. (im recording)



So no, i'm not the "clueless learner" you automatically assume I am. Especially without known a damn thing about me

When people assume "i'm riding beyond my limit" or "above my ability" what they are REALLY saying is i'm riding above what THEIR ability was as a learner, and then project it onto me.

Truth is, while I am still learning, and genuinely consider myself a learner, I only ride within my comfort zone, stay within 70% of my ability, because I dont want to push it too far. To be honest (at the risk of sounding cocky) many, what most would call "experienced" riders with full licenses, that have years under their belt, struggle to match my pace, even when im riding well below my comfort level. unfortunately, 3 have actually crashed trying, though no fatalities thankfully.

Despite being a "learner", I ride at these paces every weekend, have been for 3 years now and never have dropped it, yet having "seasoned" riders crash trying to match my pace. so im sure you could understand I find it hard to agree with anyone that makes statements along those lines.

Moral of the story, should never underestimate, assume or judge another persons abilities, based on your own.
100, 150, 200 km/ph may be intimidating to some, does not mean the same applies everyone else. for others, they feel right at home. completely relaxed, and in control, like you at 50kmh.

You're right about one thing, I am a loose nut. 😜 Always have been, and given that im now 39 and nothings changed, bets are I always will be until it kills me.

I guess its something only thrill seekers like me understand.
Death is not what scares me, whats scares me is not doing what I love. And a life lived not doing what you love, is a life not lived at all.

 

[Miliano]

and more often than not, its usually really bads riders that are fully licensed and "THINK" they know how to ride that make such statements. just like these guys, whom made the exact same statement


So by your logic, if ALL learners are not good riders, does that mean ALL fully licensed riders are very good and capable riders?
If so, how come this real world example shows differently?

 

[Miliano]

Every bike doesn’t correct itself nor does it “seek” to correct itself

you must have misunderstood what I meant.
Every motorcycle wants to track true, in a straight line, with wheels in single file, with the rear following directly behind the front, in whatever trajectory the mass of the cycle is traveling in. its basic physics.
as soon as the mass, front and rear wheel are out of alignment, the wobble starts, in an attempt to realign its self and find equilibrium, hence what I mean "seek to correct its self"

and it will correct its self, under certain conditions. as long as the inertia isnt too strong, and the rider doesnt amplify it by trying to wrestle with the handle bars

 

[Itchytoe]

dont worry, no offense taken. 😊 it the story of my life.
But Being a on a learner I can see how you would think as such, and although I still am learning to ride, my skill level is generally not what you'd expect from a learner. perhaps watching this will give you a better understanding.

mind you, that is at week 8 after getting my license, so 16 days total of riding every weekend, completely within MY comfort zone. (im recording)



When people tell me "i'm riding beyond my limit" or "above my ability" what they are REALLY saying is i'm riding above THEIR ability, and think that it somehow applies to me, just because they see an L plate on my bike.

Truth is, while I am still learning, and genuinely consider myself a learner, so I only ride within my comfort zone, say 70% of my ability, because I dont want to push it too far. To be honest (at the risk of sounding cocky) many what most would call "experienced" riders with full licenses, that have years under their belt, struggle to match my pace, even when im riding well below my comfort level. unfortunately, 3 have actually crashed trying, though no fatalities thankfully.

Despite being a "learner", riding at these paces every weekend it doesnt rain, and never have dropped it, yet having season riders crash around me. I find it hard to agree with anyone that makes statements along those lines.

Moral of the story, should never underestimate or judge another persons abilities, based on your own.
While 100, 150, 200 km/ph may be intimidating to some, does not mean the same applies everyone else. for others, they feel right at home. completely relaxed, and in control.

You're right about one thing, I am a loose nut. 😜 Always have been, and given that im now 39 and nothings changed, bets are I always will be until it kills me.

I guess its something only thrill seekers like me understand.
Death is not what scares me, whats scares me is not doing what I love. And a life lived not doing what you love, is a life not lived at all.

Yea, that video is a prime example of what I'm talking about. You are having trouble staying in your lane. You are not consistent in your lane position. You are passing traffic across solid yellow lines. You are doing turns at twice the recommended speed. I can see from the camera angles that you don't have good body position during those turns. You start out okay on body position, but it doesn't last long and gets worse the longer you're on the bike.

Your head needs to be in your lane 100% of the time. Your head (and the camera) cross both the left and right lane markers during that ride. That's a problem. You and your buddy are all over your lane, and crossing into the opposing lane from time to time. You are leaning the wrong way on some of those turns. That means you'll scrub those chicken strips off, but you're also sacrificing your safety margin to do it by forcing the bike to lean much further than it needs to. That's a bad thing. If you're on the streets, you should have chicken strips. They are a sign that you are riding well, not poorly. Sometimes you've got a late apex, sometimes you're riding the inside through the whole turn. It's extremely inconsistent. And you are way too close to your buddy. If something happens to him, you're going to hit him. You'll be a wreck on a wreck.

You are riding above your skill because you don't know what your skill level is. Good motorcycle riding is effortless. You are chasing an adrenaline high. That's a very dangerous game my friend. You've got two months of riding experience and are picking up abysmally bad habits. But hey, what do I know? I'm just some random guy on the internet.

 

[Miliano]

Yea, that video is a prime example of what I'm talking about. You are having trouble staying in your lane. You are not consistent in your lane position. You are passing traffic across solid yellow lines.

im the onboard rider following. I never cross the lines, and the bike is EXACTLY where planned for it to be, each and every time.
and as i mentioned, that is effortless, completely in my comfort zone, having a blast.

 

[Miliano]

if i do cross, its because i've made sure its clear and safe to do so.
your 100 right about riding close to each other. that was stupid. I learnt otherwise now.
thanks for the critique. if you think theres something that needs work, im all ears

 

[Miliano]

I watched it again to try figure out what you mean "im leaning the wrong way"
if i didnt lean, its either because i felt it didnt require it, or i was checking the mirror. so not sure what you mean. what timestamp?

 

[Itchytoe]

im the onboard rider following. I never cross the lines, and the bike is EXACTLY where planned for it to be, each and every time.
and as i mentioned, that is effortless, completely in my comfort zone, having a blast.

If that bike is exactly where you planned for it to be, then you don't know how to ride. And you don't have enough experience to realize how little you know. Being comfortable doesn't mean you know what you're doing. Look at 45 seconds in. See how your buddy is leaning on that left turn? That's leaning the wrong way. It's not that he simply isn't leaning with the bike; it's that he is actually leaning the wrong direction. His bike is leaning left and his body is leaning to the right. Draw a line straight through the rear tire. His spine should be on the low side of that line, but it isn't. He is doing it wrong. You didn't do it at that point, but at 1:28, I think you're starting to do it. Your head isn't looking through the turn and it's way more upright than it should be. Your camera is mounted on your helmet, so we can see where your head is pointing and how it's leaning. There are signs in your video that show more than you think they show. You do not have the skill to be riding like that even though you are in your comfort zone and having a blast.

Seriously, you've got like 20 minutes of riding experience total and think that your bike is so poorly built that it needs a steering damper to keep it from doing the death wobble. The issue is you. You simply don't know how to ride and are messing things up. That's why you're getting steering wobbles. You are doing it without knowing it. Like I said back in my original reply to you, you are causing the wobble without knowing it. You don't need a steering damper. You just need more riding skill. And for the love of Zeus, get a new riding partner. You are learning some very bad habits from him. You are 39, so basically the same age as me. We are in the age group most likely to die on a motorcycle because we think we are better riders than we are. Those 20 year old kids doing wheelies don't typically get hurt because they have 10 years of experience. You've got 10 minutes of experience and are riding like a total idiot already.

Why am I even trying? You're not going to heed anything I say. Good luck mate. Get a steering damper. I bet it will fix all your problems.

Edit: Oh, 2:45, your head is sticking out into the other lane. You did, in fact, cross the lines. You just didn't know it because you don't have the experience required.
Shortly after at 2:53, your head crosses over the left line out of your lane once again. You were not staying in your lane.

 

[Miliano]

haha "my buddy" was just a random guy I met. who had the balls to ride with me.
he had bad form for sure. nothing to do with me.
trust me I wasn't learning anything from him.
Everything I've learnt has come straight from the pros out of superbike school and being pit crew mate.
I may only have half the saddle time of some, But its well spent, and more often than not, my rider knowledge usually exceeds the average joe on the street.

 

[miweber929]

you must have misunderstood what I meant.
Every motorcycle wants to track true, in a straight line, with wheels in single file, with the rear following directly behind the front, in whatever trajectory the mass of the cycle is traveling in. its basic physics.
as soon as the mass, front and rear wheel are out of alignment, the wobble starts, in an attempt to realign its self and find equilibrium, hence what I mean "seek to correct its self"

and it will correct its self, under certain conditions. as long as the inertia isnt too strong, and the rider doesnt amplify it by trying to wrestle with the handle bars

So exactly what I said earlier applies then because what you originally wrote and what you meant are two different things.

You have a ton of schooling (meaning you read a lot, that’s a good thing) but not a lot of practical knowledge (read experience) so what theoretically happens and what actually happens can be two different things depending on outside factors. Physics applies in everything: when doing something incorrectly it applies as well.

As I stated earlier there’s something up with your 650F if it wobbles uncontrollably and needs a steering damper. At :05 seconds in the video (as well as at the 4:52 mark which is where I first saw it), right before you oddly rev the hell out of the bike just after starting it up, you can see your forks are lowered in the triple clamp about 10mm which quickens the steering but makes the bike much less stable. I played around with that on my F when I had it because that was a “trick” in the old VFR/sport tourer days and I wanted to see if I could liven the 650 steering up a bit so I went 10mm, then tried 15mm, then back to around 5mm and the bike got fairly finicky and unstable at anything more than 6mm for some reason so I went back to stock height and left it. I’d bet if you put it back to stock, or only lower it a 2-3 mm it would stabilize back up and still quicken the steering.

BTW, how are your tires? What brand and model? What tire pressure are you running? How many miles on them? Are they cupped, rounded or are there any flat spots? My Ducati started handling weird this year and I couldn’t figure out why since the tires were only at half life, the front only slightly cupped and everything was in great shape mechanically so I started playing with suspension and still couldn’t get it just right. Finally decided to swap the tires for new ones and bam, handled like a champ again, and I had to bring the suspension back where it was in the beginning. After pulling the tires off I realized how V shaped the front wore and the rear stayed a U shape, the two together cause a weird drop in feeling when turning and led to some instability in hard cornering. That may be your issue depending on the tires you’re riding on.

im the onboard rider following. I never cross the lines, and the bike is EXACTLY where planned for it to be, each and every time.
and as i mentioned, that is effortless, completely in my comfort zone, having a blast.

I’m not going to argue anything with you, it’s obvious you’re a better rider than people you’ve never met, have more natural talent than Rossi and are only here to tell us how good you are. I liked the I @Itchytoe posts because he’s showing you places you think you are doing it right and maybe aren’t. He’s taking some liberties critiquing you and your friend, who by the way should NOT be on a 1000RR, as mistakes but since we can’t see your exact path and body position we don’t 100% know. But for the most part he’s very right. If you watch both of you going into and out of corners and after passing cars you’re both unstable on the brakes and at higher acceleration levels, both signs of riders that need to learn their craft and get more experience. I can also watch the speedo drop fast as you head into seemingly smooth, easy corners; accelerating hard out of a corner and down a straight doesn’t make you a good rider. There are a ton of cycle pilots that have been riding for 20, 30, even 50 years who are terrible riders, I know, I’ve ridden with them over my years riding. Miles and years don't automatically make you good riders, I completely agree.

So I get it you’re comfortable and that’s good. But please don’t mistake “comfort” for skill and as much as you dislike others seeing your learner plate and thinking you’re a bad rider, don’t lump others who are trying to help into a group of poor riders because they don’t agree with you. The thing about riders crashing while you don’t brings to mind this little saying a dear friend of mine told me: if you’re an asshole, and surround yourself with even bigger assholes, that doesn’t make you any less of an asshole.

If you’re that good, get to a track day or find yourself new riding partners.