CBR650R MA or MA2 Oil

[Wrona1380]

Yeah, hello, my first post, and I am really really new here as with my Honda CBR650R, and “big” bikes. Before CBR I’ve been riding on 125cc Chinese bike.

So, I know I know, oil treads has been a lot, I’ve read them but haven’t found what is interesting for me. Everybody just talk about viscosity, full synthetic or not or which maker. I am interested which MA specification you choose. Owners manual says MA not MA2 and I read about differences. But my dealer don’t know what is inside for the first 1000km and same right know I don’t know what I will choose after that. Dealer said they put Honda original or Motul. Probably my choice. But for Motul there are only MA2 grades and for Honda I can’t find any info. So probably dealer don’t care about MA.
Is someone of you care?

regards
wrona

 

[miweber929]

Yeah, hello, my first post, and I am really really new here as with my Honda CBR650R, and “big” bikes. Before CBR I’ve been riding on 125cc Chinese bike.

So, I know I know, oil treads has been a lot, I’ve read them but haven’t found what is interesting for me. Everybody just talk about viscosity, full synthetic or not or which maker. I am interested which MA specification you choose. Owners manual says MA not MA2 and I read about differences. But my dealer don’t know what is inside for the first 1000km and same right know I don’t know what I will choose after that. Dealer said they put Honda original or Motul. Probably my choice. But for Motul there are only MA2 grades and for Honda I can’t find any info. So probably dealer don’t care about MA.
Is someone of you care?

regards
wrona

First of all, welcome!!!

As far your question goes, the only real answer you can count on is to use what your manual, and therefore the manufacturer of your motorcycle, recommends for your bike. Anything else is nothing but non-scientific people giving advice based on non-scientific information like feelings, thoughts, beliefs and guesses. Not that they are wrong, but unless you are an engine designer for Honda and worked on the 650 design, you don't know why they chose what they chose.

Good luck in your quest!!!!

 

[Wrona1380]

First of all, welcome!!!

As far your question goes, the only real answer you can count on is to use what your manual, and therefore the manufacturer of your motorcycle, recommends for your bike. Anything else is nothing but non-scientific people giving advice based on non-scientific information like feelings, thoughts, beliefs and guesses. Not that they are wrong, but unless you are an engine designer for Honda and worked on the 650 design, you don't know why they chose what they chose.

Good luck in your quest!!!!

Thanks for your thoughts. So I will start looking for adequate oil. Firstly I will go to dealer look for Honda OEM to look into specs ‘couse on Honda site there is no appropriate.

On service manual there is clear stated that Honda GN4 should be applied. I thought that it will be something newer HP4 or HP4S, but for me I think is best what manufacturer said.

 

[Goblin]

Welcome to the club

 

[Wrona1380]

Welcome to the club

Thank you. I’m really excited how smooth and pleasure to ride my Honda is. I’ve been learning for A driving license on CB650R which is now in Poland standard bike for exam, that’s why I choose Honda. Previously only ride on Suzuki SVF650, so with CB I felt in love at first sight but wanted more sporty style that’s why CBR.

 

[trippy]

Thanks for your thoughts. So I will start looking for adequate oil. Firstly I will go to dealer look for Honda OEM to look into specs ‘couse on Honda site there is no appropriate.

On service manual there is clear stated that Honda GN4 should be applied. I thought that it will be something newer HP4 or HP4S, but for me I think is best what manufacturer said.

Legend says that the first oil change is very important for Honda. A good choice will make the rider stop using the turn signals as horn.

Given the slipper clutch with small friction zone I doubt anyone can tell the difference between MA and MA2.

 

[Wrona1380]

I quite don’t understand first part .

And about felling difference, maybe for me it won’t be much but for assist clutch mechanism could be.

 

[JRinKtown]

Yeah, hello, my first post, and I am really really new here as with my Honda CBR650R, and “big” bikes. Before CBR I’ve been riding on 125cc Chinese bike.

So, I know I know, oil treads has been a lot, I’ve read them but haven’t found what is interesting for me. Everybody just talk about viscosity, full synthetic or not or which maker. I am interested which MA specification you choose. Owners manual says MA not MA2 and I read about differences. But my dealer don’t know what is inside for the first 1000km and same right know I don’t know what I will choose after that. Dealer said they put Honda original or Motul. Probably my choice. But for Motul there are only MA2 grades and for Honda I can’t find any info. So probably dealer don’t care about MA.
Is someone of you care?

regards
wrona

JASO MA is the standard spec for oils used in wet clutch systems, so Honda recommends JASO MA rated oils because your bike's clutch shares the same oil as the engine. JASO MA2 is a higher spec oil for wet clutch systems, especially suited for modern engines; easier on CAT converters. JASO MA1 is a lower spec oil for engines that do not share the oil with the clutch. Bottom line: JASO MA and JASO MA2 are both acceptable.

 

[daLe32]

Hi Sir welcome, MA or MA2 is okay, what I look for oils is the API ratings (API SN or Higher the better)

you can find detailed info here: LINK

 

[Wrona1380]

Hi Sir welcome, MA or MA2 is okay, what I look for oils is the API ratings (API SN or Higher the better)

you can find detailed info here: LINK

yeah I know what API says. In manual is stated that should be SG or better so ok, no problem, but somewhere I read that you shouldn’t go to high from what is recommended. You should go only by few steps.

JASO MA and JASO MA2 are both acceptable.

Yeah I generally think same, pity that in manual they hasn’t mention this.

 

[ducatiman]

 

[JRinKtown]

yeah I know what API says. In manual is stated that should be SG or better so ok, no problem, but somewhere I read that you shouldn’t go to high from what is recommended. You should go only by few steps.



Yeah I generally think same, pity that in manual they hasn’t mention this.

Perhaps much of the general info in owner's manuals was written long time ago and they never bother to update everything to reflect current developments.

 

[Dankotaru]

MA1 and MA2 are both sub-classes of the MA specification. They are both for wet clutch systems. The distinction comes from their performance in three different friction tests that are conducted as part of the MA spec. From the JASO standard:



The static friction (SFI) relates to clutch slip under load, the dynamic friction (DFI) relates to clutch engagement, and the stop time index (STI) relates to the synchronization time.

If an MA oil achieves a higher index for all three friction tests, then it qualifies as an MA2 oil. If it has a lower index for all three tests, then it qualifies as an MA1 oil. If it's mixed, then it meets neither MA2 or MA1 and is just MA. Further, because both MA2 and MA1 are sub-classes, a manufacturer can simply label an oil as MA even if it meets the MA2 or MA1 specifications. Again, from the published standard, there is a table that outlines how an oil can be labeled depending on its performance across all three friction indices (MB is low friction and typically for dry-clutch scooters):


Notice oil #3 is an MA oil that also meets the full MA2 requirements. It can be labeled either way, or both, depending on how the manufacturer wants to market it. However, oil 4 can only be marketed as MA, because it's not fully compliant with either the MA2 or MA1 sub-class standards.

So what do you need in your CBR650R? An MA oil, which can include either sub-class of MA1 or MA2. So all three are fine.

 

[JRinKtown]

MA1 and MA2 are both sub-classes of the MA specification. They are both for wet clutch systems. The distinction comes from their performance in three different friction tests that are conducted as part of the MA spec. From the JASO standard:

View attachment 11239

The static friction (SFI) relates to clutch slip under load, the dynamic friction (DFI) relates to clutch engagement, and the stop time index (STI) relates to the synchronization time.

If an MA oil achieves a higher index for all three friction tests, then it qualifies as an MA2 oil. If it has a lower index for all three tests, then it qualifies as an MA1 oil. If it's mixed, then it meets neither MA2 or MA1 and is just MA. Further, because both MA2 and MA1 are sub-classes, a manufacturer can simply label an oil as MA even if it meets the MA2 or MA1 specifications. Again, from the published standard, there is a table that outlines how an oil can be labeled depending on its performance across all three friction indices (MB is low friction and typically for dry-clutch scooters):
View attachment 11240

Notice oil #3 is an MA oil that also meets the full MA2 requirements. It can be labeled either way, or both, depending on how the manufacturer wants to market it. However, oil 4 can only be marketed as MA, because it's not fully compliant with either the MA2 or MA1 sub-class standards.

So what do you need in your CBR650R? An MA oil, which can include either sub-class of MA1 or MA2. So all three are fine.

You're misinterpreting I think. JASO MA1 oil is lower spec for bikes that require separate oils for engine and clutch. MA or MA2 are for wet clutch systems where engine and clutch share the same oil. So for our bike, it is MA or MA2, not MA1

 

[trippy]

You're misinterpreting I think. JASO MA1 oil is lower spec for bikes that require separate oils for engine and clutch. MA or MA2 are for wet clutch systems where engine and clutch share the same oil. So for our bike, it is MA or MA2, not MA1

@Dankotaru is correct.
MB is not good for wet clutch, MA is.
Both MA1 and MA2 are within the specs of MA.

 

[JRinKtown]

@Dankotaru is correct.
MB is not good for wet clutch, MA is.
Both MA1 and MA2 are within the specs of MA.

You're missing the nuance in quality. Yes, MA 1 is within MA specs for wet clutch, but it is not suited for the engine. MA1 is made for wet clutch systems where the oil for the clutch is separated from the oil for the engine. Using MA1 in our bike with shared clutch/engine oil is not recommended. The oil is not formulated for optimal performance in the engine portion. That's why you don't see an MA1 rated motorcycle oil for our bikes. MA2 is the gold standard which top makes like Motul use 'exclusively' for shared clutch/engine oil bikes. They do not make an MA1 oil. I've not seen an MA 1 motorcycle oil on the market for shared clutch engine systems. Here is a quote from Rymax Lubricants:

JASO MA1: This is a lower standard specification for motorcycles that require different oils for the engine, gearbox and clutch.

Link: What Does Jaso Oil Spec Mean?

I'd hate to see someone use MA 1 in their CB650 based on incomplete information.

 

[trippy]

You're missing the nuance in quality. Yes, MA 1 is within MA specs for wet clutch, but it is not suited for the engine. MA1 is made for wet clutch systems where the oil for the clutch is separated from the oil for the engine. Using MA1 in our bike with shared clutch/engine oil is not recommended. The oil is not formulated for optimal performance in the engine portion. That's why you don't see an MA1 rated motorcycle oil for our bikes. MA2 is the gold standard which top makes like Motul use 'exclusively' for shared clutch/engine oil bikes. They do not make an MA1 oil. I've not seen an MA 1 motorcycle oil on the market for shared clutch engine systems. Here is a quote from Rymax Lubricants:

Link: What Does Jaso Oil Spec Mean?

I'd hate to see someone use MA 1 in their CB650 based on incomplete information.

There are no nuances. It's science not poetry.

The conclusion in the link you shared is not correct. Probably is a marketing move to promote MA2 products.

From the same link
"JASO MA: Oils for motorcycles with a wet clutch."
"In 2006, MA1 and MA2 were added as extra categories within the JASO MA specification."
MA1 is a subcategory of MA and therefor good for wet clutch.

I found this article better in explaininghttps://blog.amsoil.com/whats-the-difference-between-jaso-ma-and-jaso-ma2-oil/

Owner manual says MA without mentioning 1 or 2.

From engine perspective both are good.
How often the oil is changed is by far more important. Friends that work at Honda change oil in their 650s every 5000 km.

 

[JRinKtown]

There are no nuances. It's science not poetry.

The conclusion in the link you shared is not correct. Probably is a marketing move to promote MA2 products.

From the same link
"JASO MA: Oils for motorcycles with a wet clutch."
"In 2006, MA1 and MA2 were added as extra categories within the JASO MA specification."
MA1 is a subcategory of MA and therefor good for wet clutch.

I found this article better in explaininghttps://blog.amsoil.com/whats-the-difference-between-jaso-ma-and-jaso-ma2-oil/

Owner manual says MA without mentioning 1 or 2.

From engine perspective both are good.
How often the oil is changed is by far more important. Friends that work at Honda change oil in their 650s every 5000 km.

Yes, that's what I said: MA 1 oil is for wet clutch operation -- in an engine that has separate oils for clutch and engine.

Anyway, you're still missing the point, but I don't feel the need to convince you. Do as you like. If you can find an MA 1 motorcycle oil by a major manufacturer, then use it. I'd rather follow the lead of the major oil companies like Motul, or Amsoil, whose info page you linked to. They do not make an MA 1 oil for metric motorcycles. Perhaps it's an MA 2 conspiracy (that's a joke btw).

I will leave this thread in the hopes that readers will make smart decisions on common sense.

 

[daLe32]

LINK

 

[miweber929]

LINK


View attachment 11253

I’m not trying to continue the argument here but reading through the info you literally linked above @JRinKtown is absolutely right in that the MA1 specifically states it’s for motorcycles with separate oil in the engine, clutch and gearbox so NOT compatible with a unit construction engine like in the 650. So while an MA oil, it’s a different spec; I think you’re being a little too literal line by line and not taking what’s said in its entirety.

It’s very much like radio classifications in my industry where you have class A, B and C FM stations, all having different power levels, C being the highest at 100kw, however under the the C category there are lower ERP stations called C1, C2 and C3. While “technically” a class C station, it’s not, they are substantially lower power levels and not a full class C.

There was linked a blog on Amsoil‘s website earlier, personally speaking I would take anything they offer info wise with a grain of salt. Thats just my opinion, however. I’m not a fan of their oils or outdated propaganda.