Well, my bike rests in the garage and inside temperate is always more than positive. 10W seems good to me.I haven't recommended anything, but yes, a 5W will lubricate better at start-up than a 10W, which is when most engine wear occurs. This is exactly why manufacturers recommend 5W-xx or 0W-xx oils for colder climates.
Sure, OK.
I think you've misunderstood. A 5W-30 oil is thicker at 20C than it was at operating temp (say 100C). It is also thicker at 20C than a 10W-30 is at operating temp (100C). You are correct that the 5W-30 and 10W-30 are both about the same viscosity at 100C, where they will both be somewhere in the range of 10 centistokes. So when your engine is at operating temperature, it's got nice hot oil pumping around at that viscosity of about 10cSt. But when you start your engine, the oil will be much more viscous, for either grade. My point was that even a 5W-30 will be much more viscous than 10 cSt at start-up. So, saying that it's 'too thin' and will cause higher wear rates at start-up doesn't make any sense. It's already many times thicker than the oil at its designed operating temp, and if anything, it will reduce start-up wear compared to a more viscous oil like 10W-30, because it has less resistance to flow at cold start-up.
And this is where it goes off the rails, but I think I get the issue now. Are you under the impression that it's actually better for the engine oil to be thicker at start-up than it is at operating temp? If that's the case, why run a multi-grade at all? Just put in some straight 30 weight and be done with it. But there's tons of research that refutes this idea. Multi-grade oils exist because the lighter weight oil at startup is better for engine lubrication. Just think about it a bit: if the engine is designed, from the bearing tolerances to the oil pump, to operate with an oil of about 10cSt viscosity, then why on earth would starting it up cold with thicker, slower pumping oil be better? I bet you don't start your bike cold and then romp on it right away because you think the thicker oil is somehow offering more protection for your engine. I bet you wait for the oil to warm up, like a responsible owner. But if thicker oil at startup is better, then why wait? Probably because when it's cold out, you can actually feel the loss of performance. Once it starts getting closer to that 10cSt viscosity, it starts feeling better.
See, if we could engineer a lubricant that was 10cSt at 20C, and stayed 10cSt at 100C, then we would have the holy grail of lubrication. But we can't because physics and chemistry. So, an engine oil is specified for the operating condition, where it spends 99% of its time, accepting that most wear will occur at start-up when the lubricant is well out of the design viscosity parameters. But, with a mutli-grade oil, we can at least minimize that viscosity spread, and improve the viscosity index of the lubricant, as seen in that chart I posted for the 10W-30. Sure, it gets thicker as it gets colder, but not as thick as a 30 weight when cold. And sure, it still thins out as it gets warmer, but not as much as a 10 weight when hot. That's what it means to minimize the viscosity spread, and a A 5W-30 does even better to minimize the viscosity spread, a 0W-30 even better still.
So, why does Honda recommend a 10W-30? I could venture a bunch of educated guesses, and would be happy to postulate if you're interested, but better cold-start protection certainly isn't one of those reasons.
Well, my bike rests in the garage and inside temperate is always more than positive. 10W seems good to me.
I always start by believing that if maker recommends something, there must be a reason why.
I'm also tempted to believe that a 5W40 would protect better the engine. So, why does Honda insists on the 10W30?! Does anyone know or has a clue why?!
Untill I undestand that, I decided not only to keep the 10W30, but also use the original Honda oil. I live 500m from the local dealer, easy and cheap to get. Saturday morning I was doing a check in my bike. Needed to top the oil. Walked "down the street" and 30 minutes lated I was back in the garage with a can of 10W30 Honda oil ;-)
Honda knows that most of our bikes will be submitted to huge reving torture. Would they be recommending something that wouldn´t be enough to protect the engines againt that?! Don´t think so...
i am going to use it- as in my country all bike shops sells it for most of bikes , even for sport bikes; so i assume that it will be fine for my cb650r, because that oils meets all the specs of hondas GN4 MA. aswell, because honda does not make oils, i think i can use other brand insteadHas anyone on here used Motul 7100 10w-30 in their bikes ?
A little off topic, I have a magnetic oil pan heater that I’ve used on various vehicles. If I feel the need to start the bike when it’s -30 C it’s makes for a very quick start. Not that I’m going for a ride in the snow. My Honda Odyssey hates the cold!
Well, my bike rests in the garage and inside temperate is always more than positive. 10W seems good to me.
I always start by believing that if maker recommends something, there must be a reason why.
I'm also tempted to believe that a 5W40 would protect better the engine. So, why does Honda insists on the 10W30?! Does anyone know or has a clue why?!
Untill I undestand that, I decided not only to keep the 10W30, but also use the original Honda oil. I live 500m from the local dealer, easy and cheap to get. Saturday morning I was doing a check in my bike. Needed to top the oil. Walked "down the street" and 30 minutes lated I was back in the garage with a can of 10W30 Honda oil ;-)
Honda knows that most of our bikes will be submitted to huge reving torture. Would they be recommending something that wouldn´t be enough to protect the engines againt that?! Don´t think so...
Yes, it’s that simple. I picked one up quite sometime ago at Princess Auto, unfortunately I no longer have the actual specs for it. You could put it on a timer similar to a regular block heater if you wanted. You’ll be able to feel the difference in temperature by touch, the top of the engine will be the ambient temperature but where the heater is attached you feel that it’s significantly warmer. I hope this helps.Fellow Canadian here. I’ve never heard of a magnetic oil pan heater. Can you just easily slap it under any vehicle/motor with zero install? How do you know when the oil is heated enough? Is there a temp gauge or temp vs time table guide?
I too have thought about this a lot. Dankotaru has made a really educated and compelling argument. So why does the manufacturer recommend a certain grade of oil? While reading this thread a thought struck me. Why does any company/business do anything, what motivates their choices? Answer, money, profit. I may be wrong, this is just spit balling, but I think it makes sense that for a mass production, honda would choose the least expensive oil that is adequate instead of a higher quality, better performing, extreme temperature resistant, thus more expensive oil. Then why not recommend to the consumer a “better” oil? Well I think that would be admitting that they fill their engines with the cheapest oil they can get away with. Then that plays perfectly into the whole planned obsolescence thing. I’m not sure, does Honda make their own oil or do they rebrand another producer? In either case, Honda’s 10w30 full synthetic hp4s is still only classified to late 90’s standards asi SJ, and Jaso T903 MA. Most, maybe all modern oils for 4 strokes are classified with the 2006 standard of only (no T903) JASO MA1, MA2 (apparently recommended for bikes with cats), MA (mix of MA1 and MA2) . The cat thing makes sense because emissions were becoming more and more stringent. It’s also said that MA2 makes the clutch more grabby, less gradual, and doesn’t slip as much as MA1 or MA. Has anyone ever tried the regular honda oil vs an M2 and felt a difference, for better or worse?
Another interesting thing is that for a 2021 cbr 1000rr the honda manual still only recommends SG (standard from the late 80’s!!) or better, and/or Jaso T903 MA!! Doesn’t even say to use Honda HP4S full synthetic. So that means they pretty much recommend to use the same GN4 mix as in my 2020 cbr650r? Seems odd to me. Am I wrong to say the 1000rr is a much more demanding of it’s engine/trans components, therefore requiring higher grade oil? Higher compression and octane, tighter clearances and specs. Could it be that Honda produces large quantities and tries to limit the variations, and more complex (more expensive) variations of oil for more profit? Basically only mass produce and recommend a few types of power sports oils that can cover a wide enough spectrum of median performance that is simply adequate. What do you peeps think about this? Anybody have a brand recommendation of the very very best full synthetic MA2 10w30? And now because of Dankotaru, I’m also considering 5w30. Because at operating temp it’s the same viscosity as 10w30 right? But like he said the 5w means it’s thinner at ambient than w10 and flows better on cold start up. At least that’s what I understood.
Ah yes one more thing, it seems to be established that my gen cb/cbr650 runs hot, or at least the temp gauge shows it’s running just shy of in the red. Has anyone ever actually measured the block temp? Maybe it is just that the gauge isn’t visually too precise? Or maybe it really does run hotter than it should and in that case maybe a 40 is justified over a 30? Please interwebs 🙏 please just tell me what to do 🙏. My brain hurts, why do I do this to myself 😂.
If you want to learn about the actual specifications and distinctions for MA, and its sub-classes MA1 and MA2, we've discussed it before in this thread:JASO MA1, MA2 (apparently recommended for bikes with cats), MA (mix of MA1 and MA2) . The cat thing makes sense because emissions were becoming more and more stringent. It’s also said that MA2 makes the clutch more grabby, less gradual, and doesn’t slip as much as MA1 or MA.
Spot on!I wouldn't use car oil on a motorbike . Since the clutch is wet clutch and it also uses the same engine oil with the gear box on a motorbike, oils for motorbikes have different additives thus different specs even though it might have the same rating .
SJ oils will have more zinc I belive than newer specs of API. I prefer having more since in the oilI too have thought about this a lot. Dankotaru has made a really educated and compelling argument. So why does the manufacturer recommend a certain grade of oil? While reading this thread a thought struck me. Why does any company/business do anything, what motivates their choices? Answer, money, profit. I may be wrong, this is just spit balling, but I think it makes sense that for a mass production, honda would choose the least expensive oil that is adequate instead of a higher quality, better performing, extreme temperature resistant, thus more expensive oil. Then why not recommend to the consumer a “better” oil? Well I think that would be admitting that they fill their engines with the cheapest oil they can get away with. Then that plays perfectly into the whole planned obsolescence thing. I’m not sure, does Honda make their own oil or do they rebrand another producer? In either case, Honda’s 10w30 full synthetic hp4s is still only classified to late 90’s standards asi SJ, and Jaso T903 MA. Most, maybe all modern oils for 4 strokes are classified with the 2006 standard of only (no T903) JASO MA1, MA2 (apparently recommended for bikes with cats), MA (mix of MA1 and MA2) . The cat thing makes sense because emissions were becoming more and more stringent. It’s also said that MA2 makes the clutch more grabby, less gradual, and doesn’t slip as much as MA1 or MA. Has anyone ever tried the regular honda oil vs an M2 and felt a difference, for better or worse?
Another interesting thing is that for a 2021 cbr 1000rr the honda manual still only recommends SG (standard from the late 80’s!!) or better, and/or Jaso T903 MA!! Doesn’t even say to use Honda HP4S full synthetic. So that means they pretty much recommend to use the same GN4 mix as in my 2020 cbr650r? Seems odd to me. Am I wrong to say the 1000rr is a much more demanding of it’s engine/trans components, therefore requiring higher grade oil? Higher compression and octane, tighter clearances and specs. Could it be that Honda produces large quantities and tries to limit the variations, and more complex (more expensive) variations of oil for more profit? Basically only mass produce and recommend a few types of power sports oils that can cover a wide enough spectrum of median performance that is simply adequate. What do you peeps think about this? Anybody have a brand recommendation of the very very best full synthetic MA2 10w30? And now because of Dankotaru, I’m also considering 5w30. Because at operating temp it’s the same viscosity as 10w30 right? But like he said the 5w means it’s thinner at ambient than w10 and flows better on cold start up. At least that’s what I understood.
Ah yes one more thing, it seems to be established that my gen cb/cbr650 runs hot, or at least the temp gauge shows it’s running just shy of in the red. Has anyone ever actually measured the block temp? Maybe it is just that the gauge isn’t visually too precise? Or maybe it really does run hotter than it should and in that case maybe a 40 is justified over a 30? Please interwebs 🙏 please just tell me what to do 🙏. My brain hurts, why do I do this to myself 😂.