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All 650's Derestricting LAMS version ECU (Australia)

Should their be an OEM derestricting option available?

  • Total voters
    69
U

User6

2017
CBR650F ABS
Feb 4, 2018
miweber929 said:
No one had posted a dyno graph, they area just saying they hit 90hp so take what is being said with a grain of salt. You can make any dyno say any number you want it to as well.

Around 80hp rear wheel is what you’d expect to see on these bikes on a true and accurate dyno. So if you are around that area, it’s normal, despite what others are saying.

The PCV will get you a smoother throttle transition and better fueling, but you’ll see 1-2 hp max with a custome dyno tune. They are just not magic hp unleashers.

I hate being the downer guy here but I’m telling you reality. There are not super horsepower gains to be had with this or any modern bike nowadays, manufacturers just can’t leave any stone unturned or anything stuck in an overly restrictive intake or air filter any more, it’s just too important to have every bit of power available.

When you guys are looking for 10 or 15hp over stock, sit and think in relation to what the bike puts out how much that is an increase: 20% additional. 20%!!! Tuners port and flow heads and install high compression pistons for 5%. So you’re up against two things:

1. Not going to get that much increase from a pipe, air filter and an FI tuner.

2. Not going to have that much headroom available in a motor.

It’s the truth, accept if you want a 100hp 600cc bike you need to move to an RR style motor.
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Thanks for your reply mate, much appreciated.

What I don't understand is why I get this delayed feeling when I fully twist the throttle? What do you think is the problem?
It almost feels like it has to think about it then get going.

This doesn't occur if I gently twist the throttle
 
miweber929

miweber929

2014
CBR650F
650 Alumnus
Staff
Feb 13, 2015
Woodbury, MN
Riding Since
1975
CBR650F said:
Thanks for your reply mate, much appreciated.

What I don't understand is why I get this delayed feeling when I fully twist the throttle? What do you think is the problem?
It almost feels like it has to think about it then get going.

This doesn't occur if I gently twist the throttle
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Mine felt the same way, and it was something that was kind of annoying. But for it was more of a when I twisted the throttle to wide open in a “normal” manner it worked fine, when I was putting around, then whacked the throttle wide open to be a dick it delayed before taking off. So unless I wanted it to happen, it didn’t.

I believe your analogy of it having to “think” before acting is correct. There are literally hundreds of parameters the ECU is looking at and it has to decide what to do with this input you’ve asked of the bike that is far different than what it was just doing, almost like the bike has an “Are you sure?” mode built in. I’ve felt this in varying degrees on many bikes, but it’s most pronounced on (and I know I’m going to piss people off here) non-super sport bikes, similar to the 650, or bikes without complex modes, traction control, etc..

We don't have a true throttle by wire system, but I think it acts in a way that it takes a second to decide what it needs or should to do. Now on some T-B-W it’s very apparent and worse than the 650 but I don’t overly notice it with the Ducati, BMW or Yamaha FI sportbike setups.

Not sure if the PCV would help, I know it used to have an optional accelerator pump style mode like the big 4 stroke single carb used to have where there was a “pool” of fuel that would be used if you whacked the throttle open to clear a tree or loft the front wheel until the carb could flow normally. That may help the feeling out but I haven’t been through their software in years so I don’t know if it’s still there.

Otherwise, I think it’s just the feeling the bike can have. It doesn’t seem to be anything wrong, just how it reacts.
 
U

User6

2017
CBR650F ABS
Feb 4, 2018
miweber929 said:
Mine felt the same way, and it was something that was kind of annoying. But for it was more of a when I twisted the throttle to wide open in a “normal” manner it worked fine, when I was putting around, then whacked the throttle wide open to be a dick it delayed before taking off. So unless I wanted it to happen, it didn’t.

I believe your analogy of it having to “think” before acting is correct. There are literally hundreds of parameters the ECU is looking at and it has to decide what to do with this input you’ve asked of the bike that is far different than what it was just doing, almost like the bike has an “Are you sure?” mode built in. I’ve felt this in varying degrees on many bikes, but it’s most pronounced on (and I know I’m going to piss people off here) non-super sport bikes, similar to the 650, or bikes without complex modes, traction control, etc..

We don't have a true throttle by wire system, but I think it acts in a way that it takes a second to decide what it needs or should to do. Now on some T-B-W it’s very apparent and worse than the 650 but I don’t overly notice it with the Ducati, BMW or Yamaha FI sportbike setups.

Not sure if the PCV would help, I know it used to have an optional accelerator pump style mode like the big 4 stroke single carb used to have where there was a “pool” of fuel that would be used if you whacked the throttle open to clear a tree or loft the front wheel until the carb could flow normally. That may help the feeling out but I haven’t been through their software in years so I don’t know if it’s still there.

Otherwise, I think it’s just the feeling the bike can have. It doesn’t seem to be anything wrong, just how it reacts.
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Thank you so much for your detailed reply once again, I'm so glad to know there's someone that knows what he's talking about.
The only answer I seem to get from dyno shops here is you need to compensate one thing for another and there's nothing I can do about it.
It was really getting me down and I was at the point of selling the bike but if you say it's normal, then it must be normal.
You are right, it's almost like the bike is trying not to kill me with a sudden rush of power when I fully twist the throttle (at any rpm).
I guess I just need to accept the fact that it will never be like an open class bike and appreciate that I have saved a lot of money with this simple mod.
 
D

Drewster123

2017
CBR650F ABS
Feb 16, 2018
I get what you mean to I thought Maybe that was where a power comamder would come in handy but if it dosent sort that out im deffianaly not waisting my money.
 
miweber929

miweber929

2014
CBR650F
650 Alumnus
Staff
Feb 13, 2015
Woodbury, MN
Riding Since
1975
CBR650F said:
I guess I just need to accept the fact that it will never be like an open class bike and appreciate that I have saved a lot of money with this simple mod.
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That is the main complaint I read about with new owners and people talk about after they buy this bike and start riding it: a lack of power. The motor will never be a powerhouse, it’s designed from the start to be a mild mannered power plant in the sub-100hp range and that’s what it’s going to be.

If you can live with that, it’s a great bike. I enjoyed it but then my days of chasing top speed, wheelies, gut wrenching roll on power, etc. are long gone so it fit me well for my purpose at the time. If you want that kind of power and snap, this isn’t the bike for you and you’re much further ahead to sell it move on to something else like an RR, Zx6, R6 or step up to a liter.

Drewster123 said:
I get what you mean to I thought Maybe that was where a power comamder would come in handy but if it dosent sort that out im deffianaly not waisting my money.
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I’m not saying it definitely won’t, the “accelerator pump” mode was a hoot on my 954RR when activated, I just don’t think it will ever completely go away based on the ECU design. Doing a quick google search does it’s still there to be used, however:

https://dynojet.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360003899773-How-do-I-configure-Accel-Pump-in-the-PCV-
 
H

helman

2018
CBR650F ABS
Oct 2, 2019
Australia
A question to those who have derestricted their bike. Did you notice RPM numbers dropping when running at 110km/hr? I ask as I had a 2014 non-restricted bike that would chug along nicely at 4000rpm on the motorway but this restricted one does the same speed at 5000rpm. The tooth count on the sprockets are supposed to be the same and the gear ratios on 1st and 6th gear likewise appear to be the same on both the '14 and '18 models. In theory both bikes should run the same RPM. So now I'm wondering if I will need to change sprocket(s) in order to get a lower RPM and better fuel economy on the motorway.
 
miweber929

miweber929

2014
CBR650F
650 Alumnus
Staff
Feb 13, 2015
Woodbury, MN
Riding Since
1975
helman said:
A question to those who have derestricted their bike. Did you notice RPM numbers dropping when running at 110km/hr? I ask as I had a 2014 non-restricted bike that would chug along nicely at 4000rpm on the motorway but this restricted one does the same speed at 5000rpm. The tooth count on the sprockets are supposed to be the same and the gear ratios on 1st and 6th gear likewise appear to be the same on both the '14 and '18 models. In theory both bikes should run the same RPM. So now I'm wondering if I will need to change sprocket(s) in order to get a lower RPM and better fuel economy on the motorway.
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Are you running in the same gear on both and is it sixth? I bolded the statement above that may be incorrect if you are not running in top gear because second through fifth gears in the transmission are slightly different between the 14-16 and 17-18 but first and sixth, and the final drive sprockets, are the same.

You asked about this in another thread, and I believe the question was are the transmissions the same and I was thinking you were asking about LAMS vs. non-LAMS and not years so I may have led you to an incorrect assumption the 14 and 18 bijes were the same transmission. They aren’t but the LAMS versions and regular 650 are.

2018: https://www.bikebandit.com/oem-parts/2018-honda-cbr650f2a/o/m162249#sch1051074
2014: https://www.bikebandit.com/oem-parts/2014-honda-cbr650f/o/m156357#sch848882

However my last statement in that other thread stands, but I’ll further explain: if you are in sixth, the gear ratios are the same but you are riding a restricted vs. an unrestricted bike, so you are riding a bike with half the horsepower of the other and an air path to the airbox of 1/6 (or less) so it would need more “throttle” to get the same speed and more susceptible to outside factors like wind and load carrying.

Also, I think your memory may be a bit off because 110km/h equates to just over 68mph and in no way did the 650F churn 4,000 rpm at that speed unless it was drastically re-geared. If memory serves me that would be 5,200-5,500 rpm to get 70mph in sixth.
 
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H

helman

2018
CBR650F ABS
Oct 2, 2019
Australia
I appreciate you taking the time in helping me out. You maybe correct that my memory is off. You have me wondering now. Do you have a non-lams bike or know someone who does ? and what are your revs at 110km/hr?
 
H

helman

2018
CBR650F ABS
Oct 2, 2019
Australia
Perhaps my memory fails me (again) but with my 2014 bike I never felt like I needed another gear on the motorway as I do with this one. A friend of mine commented the same thing without prompting after relocating the bike to our new house because I couldn't ride at the time due to a shoulder injury.
 
H

helman

2018
CBR650F ABS
Oct 2, 2019
Australia
Well I've had my bike de-restricted and it runs a lot better, whilst the RPMs at speed remains the same I no longer get the feeling that I need another gear. It revs "easier" than it did before. I'm glad I had it done but wish I had the cash to also get an Akroprovic system and have the ecu tuned for that. Maybe in the future.
 
U

User6

2017
CBR650F ABS
Feb 4, 2018
Sorry guys, haven’t been on here for a while.
I spoke with a few other reputable bike shops who said it’s not normal and their tunes that take a week to complete do not act in this matter.
Moral of the story, do not take your bike to someone that can do it in a day.
 
Sudesh

Sudesh

2018
CBR650F ABS
650 Alumnus
Nov 21, 2017
Victoria, Australia
Riding Since
2010
CBR650F said:
Sorry guys, haven’t been on here for a while.
I spoke with a few other reputable bike shops who said it’s not normal and their tunes that take a week to complete do not act in this matter.
Moral of the story, do not take your bike to someone that can do it in a day.
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I'm from Melbourne and a lot of people have gone to Dynobike and backed up their reputation however there have been a few faults from customers. One persons ECU was blown and another had a similar throttle lag issue. Bound to happen while tuning but yeah I'm sorry you were an unlucky case, maybe ask Dave to check that for you!
 
U

User6

2017
CBR650F ABS
Feb 4, 2018
He wasn’t interested and dismissed my concern like I’m imagining things.
Basically told me to ride the bike and stop worrying about it.
I wish I had taken your advice and went to Platinum.
Doesn’t matter now, I’m off my restrictions and time to buy a big boys bike!
 
Koala Lumpur

Koala Lumpur

2018
CB650F ABS
Nov 26, 2020
Riding Since
2020
helman said:
Well I've had my bike de-restricted and it runs a lot better, whilst the RPMs at speed remains the same I no longer get the feeling that I need another gear. It revs "easier" than it did before. I'm glad I had it done but wish I had the cash to also get an Akroprovic system and have the ecu tuned for that. Maybe in the future.
Click to expand...

Hi mate, how did you do it?
 
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